Steve Jagler: The Zenquest of Leaders with Jess Ollenburg

With the incomparable Steve Jagler, we’re talking changes in today’s media, executive branding that works, where servant leadership may thrive, social conscience, accidental entrepreneurism… and zen through a pet’s lens.  Please find the landing page and contact info for this episode at: Steve Jagler - The Zenquest of Leaders Podcast — zenquest.online

Here’s a quick summary on today’s guest…

•Known as the “CEO Whisperer,” Steve Jagler has more than three decades of experience as a professional journalist. 

•Over the course of his career, he has interviewed hundreds of executives, discussing their best practices in leading their organizations. 

•In addition, Jagler has won regional and national awards as an editor, reporter, columnist and blogger. 

•Steve has led journalism at a local, national and global communications level. 

•He was named business editor and featured Sunday “C-Level” columnist at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel in 2015. 

•He previously was the executive editor of BizTimes Media and managing editor of the Milwaukee Business Journal. 

•He also served as a business news analyst at WISN-TV Channel 12. 

•Jagler is a past president of the Milwaukee Press Club and continues to serve on the organization’s board of directors. 

•He served two terms as a member of the board of directors of the Alliance of Area Business Publishers. 

•Today, Jagler provides communications counsel and media relations guidance to executives in the private sector, elevating their corporate and executive brands.

Transcript

Jessica Ollenburg: 1:17

Known as the CEO whisperer, Steve Jagler has more than three decades of experience as a professional journalist. Over the course of his career, he has interviewed hundreds of executives discussing their best practices in leading their organizations. In addition, Jagler has won regional and national awards as an editor, reporter columnist and blogger. Steve has led journalism at a local, national and global communications level. He was named business editor and featured Sunday C-level columnist at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel in 2015. He previously was the executive editor of BizTimes Media and managing editor of the Milwaukee Business Journal. He served as a business news analyst at WISN TV channel 12. Jagler is a past president of the Milwaukee Press Club, and continues to serve on the organization's board of directors. He served two terms as a member of the Board of Directors of the alliance of area business publishers. Today, Jagler provides communications counsel and media relations guidance to executives in the private sector, elevating their corporate and executive brands. Thank you, Steve, for joining us today. Welcome.

Steve Jagler : 2:43

It's an honor. You bet, Jessica.

Jessica Ollenburg: 2:46

So good to have you here. We have worked together for decades and have collaborated on some of my very favorite informative articles, you have represented fact and integrity in all of our work together. I recently reviewed articles somewhat recent, and even from the archives... a little little trip down memory lane. And it was a really pleasant reminder of the educational and inspirational impact. I've enjoyed working with you as managing editor, a journalist, and a good human. It's a pleasure to follow you and Steve Jagler Executive Branding, through your adventures and accomplishments. Steve, what should business owners and leaders know about today's media and how it's changed?

Steve Jagler : 3:37

Well, you know, compare it to when I first started working in a 20th century business model of the daily American daily newspaper where yesterday's news was delivered by fossil fuels, to people's homes, the very next day. Fast forward to today... you know, back back then, you had three daily newscasts, a morning paper and an afternoon paper. So we were all consuming the same media. And now fast forward today. And you think how nuanced and complex our consumption of media and news is, it's, it's mind boggling really. Multiple TV stations have multiple newscasts. They have online versions of their stories, they have podcasts, that people are consuming news, on their smartphones, on their tablets, in their cars. And so there are so many different options for people to receive their news and to stay informed. And so that's the challenge. For somebody like me, and my my new line of work, running my own company of media relations, is to help my clients bust through the clutter and bust through the noise. And, and, and make their brands heard and seen and accounted for amidst everything else that's going on.

Jessica Ollenburg: 5:29

And there's so much going on. Everyone's got the microphone, it must be incredibly hard in media, to have to compete with all of this real time sensationalism, with fact checking and good journalism, because there's more out there. If you wait for that, are you even responsive enough to the messaging?

Steve Jagler : 5:52

Yeah, it's there's a much greater sense of urgency to every message that needs to be out there. And that starts with the initial contact with the journalist. There needs to be a sense of urgency and focused story that captures his or Her attention to have any chance of them becoming the subject of a new story on television, radio, in print or online.

Jessica Ollenburg: 6:25

Sure. So to what extent... I see what you're doing, you're managing to keep that integrity and that essence of fact, and journalism, you're doing that in the face of all of this other noise. How's that working for the executives your branding? It seems like it's just exactly what they need.

Steve Jagler : 6:50

Oh, I'm very much a believer and a proponent in the concept of brand journalism in this era, where I believe That's so important to have that alignment all the way through it's incumbent upon company and nonprofit leaders to practice the concept of brand journalism. By that I mean they need to be without any confusion of brand messaging. Confused brand can the purveyor -- the messenger -- of their own brands. From from the get go, out of the start, they need to control those can be very harmful to messaging. And as I'm hearing messages from the start, before they even pitch, for lack of a better word, to earned media outlets. Everybody is a guardian all the great things you're talking about, I want to circle of his or her own brand. And that starts with their own messaging. What they tell people what they do, it starts with back to something you said about how stories can then turn into their own website, the website anymore is the front door for people first discovering your organization, you better have the right messages there in your, at your website, it better other stories. For instance, I would think with your expertise be easy to find, there better be a link on your homepage for people to learn more about what you do. And so there are some and everything you've seen, experienced and facilitated, things that every business and every nonprofit organization can control. And that's their own messaging, their own brand awareness. that you're able to craft messages with an eye on "let's Well, it's important. I think where I would make the case that not let this be misinterpreted or misconstrued; let's get ahead where I can add value is I understand the media outlets, I of that." And to try to stay out of those muddy waters and maybe even have a plan B, if you're willing to stick your toe in those muddy waters. But you can see it coming, can't you? understand who their audiences are, I understand the kinds of stories that they're trying to tell and why. And I'm able to take my clients and position their messages in alliance with the media outlets mission, and who their audiences are. And having served at so many important media outlets and having served as the Milwaukee Press Club president, I'm able to take my clients' messages and best position those messages for particular media outlets. The old saying is you only get one chance at first impression. Sure, that very much is true. In my line of work, I'll get one chance to make the best pitch possible for my client to a particular media outlet. And it better be hitting all the right notes.

Jessica Ollenburg: 10:33

And knowing you, you will every time. Well thank you for that. And that's really, really good information, especially today. I think that there is such a thirst for messaging we can trust. And thank you for being someone who provides that.

Steve Jagler : 10:54

Thank you very much.

Jessica Ollenburg: 10:56

We've collaborated on articles... I again went through a little bit of memory lane to go back and look at some of the things and how relevant they are, because they really are relevant today. In the past, we've collaborated on articles regarding leadership employment, law, workplace morale, organizational communications, wellness, skills gap and so much more. You and your team have always been quick to follow notable trends, follow concerns and provide working Solutions. As I look through some of these things, and some of them are very recent, and some of them were, you know, a little farther back in the decades, and even those that I pulled from the archives for just a good smile and remembering the impact... there are so many things that we can still report on today that were brought to the forefront then and have changed but not entirely. People are a little afraid of change. And yet, when we look back at some of the things we predicted, a lot of the things are really there. And many of those are concerned around workplace behaviors, what employees want, what leaders need, and the condition of the human spirit. What are some of the favorite topics and people for which you have reported or led the effort?

Steve Jagler : 12:33

Well at the top of the list from what you just said, it reminds me of, I'm a huge proponent of the concept of servant leadership.

Jessica Ollenburg: 12:45

Beautiful!

Steve Jagler : 12:46

And it started in my life, when I was promoted to an editor at the ripe age of 30. And supervising a newsroom full of reporters, most of whom were much older and more experienced than me. And I'll never forget, I called, I called my dad long distance. And, and and that was back in the days where it mattered whether your call was long distance or local.

Jessica Ollenburg: 13:19

(Joint Laughter)

Steve Jagler : 13:19

I called him long distance, because I know he had been promoted to a leadership position at a very young age as well. And I had absolutely no training in leading people in managing people. And I said, Dad, I've been put in charge of a newsroom here. And and I've never led had to lead anybody. How do I do this? And, and he paused for a moment. And then he said, leadership is simple. But it's not easy. And of course,

Jessica Ollenburg: 13:56

(Joint Laughter) Where is that going?

Steve Jagler : 13:59

He said that the concept is simple. He said, surround yourself with the best and brightest people you can, and then do everything you can to help them fly, you serve them. And he said, That concept is simple enough. But make no mistakes. Walking that walk every day is not going to be easy. And that was you know, 30 years ago now that my late father gave me that advice, but it is stuck with me. And that's always been at the core of my philosophy. And I stress it. I'm launching a new project in my company, a servant leadership profile project. And I hope to engage you in a future episode of that project, Jessica, because in a nutshell, I've collected like 30 different traits of servant leadership, of a good servant leader.

Jessica Ollenburg: 15:06

I love this.

Steve Jagler : 15:07

And I'm asking my clients to pick the five most important traits to them, that they want to be remembered for when they leave, leave the room. And it stems to that Maya Angelou, quote, The late great American poet, and I'm paraphrasing, but she said, people may not remember what you said, people may not remember what you did, but they will always remember how you make them feel. And so I'm using this project to help my clients solidify their their compass, their North Stars, for their own servant leadership style, how do they want to be remembered when they leave the room? What are their priorities? And I think the process of going through this this exercise, it helps them clarify in their own minds, what needs to be Their priorities, and what needs to be their North Stars of how they want to lead their organizations.

Jessica Ollenburg: 16:21

I love this model that you're talking about Steve... and thank you also for the offer to participate. And well, I would love to, and we'll keep our listeners posted on how they can get back to that good stuff. But just Just following up on what you're talking about, it is absolutely the perfect world model. If you can first understand your employees even before they're there, decide, make a decision about your culture, your alignment, your leadership style. And if we can be transparent about what that is, and establish a orientation and even a screening metric that helps us find people who are going to do best with our leadership style, then they're also going to get what they need in the workplace. Otherwise you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Humans are are very different. There are some behavioral patterns we can absolutely look at as a science, but there's always variables. And a lot of those variables are completely extrinsic, they happen in a day. It's not something shaped over time. It's like you said about Maya Angelou, it could be something that happens on the job that is such an extrinsic incident that makes them feel immediately comfortable or immediately uncomfortable, and impacts the performance of the day. So all of those things are so important. And in the throes of running a business, if you can start with getting the right people looking for the right things, and you're committed to delivering just that whenever you can. It's definitely a path of lesser resistance and better outcome.

Steve Jagler : 18:14

Yeah. You know, thinking back to when I was running newsrooms, and interviewing candidates for positions and those newsrooms thinking back, I pretty much knew within the first five minutes of interviewing a candidate, whether or not I wanted to hire him or her. Presuming all things being equal, that their resume met the requirements, experience that I needed, all things being equal... okay, show me what you got! I pretty much, for lack of a better phrase, I fell in love immediately in almost every hire I made. For that candidate, I pictured that candidate working in my newsroom with our team and and that it was a good fit, a comfortable fit. And, well, you know, all things being equal, presuming they had the right resume the right experience, it happened always happened very quickly where I could picture that person working with our team, or not working with our team, as it were.

Jessica Ollenburg: 19:38

Did you have some specific measurements or triggers or things you were looking for? Or looking for to be absent? Or was this... did you use the instinct of the wealth of your experience and just kind of go with more of that second brain gut feeling? Oh my goodness, right.

Steve Jagler : 19:59

I can only I wish I could have a qualitative process I could share with you and your listeners, but it really was... the right word there was instinctual. It really was instincts. You know, you can't teach character. And work ethic is not something that is taught: character and work ethic and, and empathy. These are qualities that people have, and they they either have them or they don't. And again, all things being equal on the resume. I instinctively looked for those qualities of whether or not that person was a team Well, when the world is complicated, chaotic enough as player. Would... would... Who needs the drama of internal problems and, and chaos? it is, it's a waste of my time and our organization's time if I'm constantly putting out fires and resolving conflicts within my team. And so I needed to make the right hire for for my team is the way I looked at my role. And I very much, in most most cases, would then... if I fell in love with the right candidate, I very much wanted my team to interview that person,

Jessica Ollenburg: 21:47

perfect

Steve Jagler : 21:48

as a follow up of their own interview with when I'm not even in the room, so they can feel comfortable asking the questions that matter to them. And then I want honest feedback from my team. And presuming no red flags were issued, and that I was convinced the person was the right fit, I would hire that person. Now I realize larger organizations might not have the ability to be so nuanced in their screening, if they have 1000 employees, and people are coming and going. I had the luxury I guess, for lack of a better word, of working at organizations that were smaller. And I could take the time, and go through the nuanced procedure and have my team sign off on the hire. And that way... that process never once failed me. I never had to fire anybody or let anybody go because they weren't a fit we discovered later. I never had to do that. So maybe I was just lucky. Um, but...

Jessica Ollenburg: 23:04

Well, I think it probably had something to do with you and your leadership and how you treated others as well. So I'm not sure it's all luck, I think. But, but yeah, I would absolutely imagine how much you were able to just start off on the right foot by investing that at the onset, and and many will try to train and develop without a proper look before hiring. And sometimes the trainability just isn't there. I know over the years where I ran an assessment center which processed for a lot of assessments for companies of 100,000 or more employees. And to your point, what happens there and the big differences, it's not that one we find has a greater advantage, but they're very different. In the larger companies, we're able to get quantitative assessments, tie them back to performance scores with regression analysis, and make really good systematic decisions based upon those metrics and that data science... which is tied back to behavior, not personality, but their behaviors

Steve Jagler : 24:29

Right.

Jessica Ollenburg: 24:30

So it would, it would all be legal, metric, consistent, non discriminatory. And that's a beautiful tool, when you got something you can literally just plug into a metric and get a go no go solution that you know is actually customized and considers your own company's unique needs. What we find with the smaller companies to your point is you can you can use that holistic wisdom, knowledge, understanding of character, understanding of collaboration, and bring in all your human judgment as a leader. And that can all be brought together for a very holistic decision. And it sounds like somebody with your wisdom and experience can certainly turn that key and make it a good fit.

Steve Jagler : 25:21

Well, we're all imperfect.

Jessica Ollenburg: 25:24

Absolutely.

Steve Jagler : 25:28

So that's part of that's part of it all is the human experiment. And, but, but empathy is is is a key attribute that I look for in people. So

Jessica Ollenburg: 25:50

it's empathy. I know people still confuse empathy and sympathy a little bit and they think that if they haven't been in somebody else's shoes, they get a false sense of security perhaps that they can really understand that. But when you really can put yourself in someone else's shoes, when you can really look at things through their lens, that's true empathy. And if you're a champion of the human spirit, you can do good things with that.

Steve Jagler : 26:19

Well, that's exactly right. And the North Star for me on that factor is when it comes to empathy, you can't teach smart and you can't fix stupid. The way I've always looked at that, at that quantity, quality,

Jessica Ollenburg: 26:44

very true. Very true. What are some of your favorite topics or people that you have led the effort or reported on over the years? What are the standouts? Any just really interesting or laughable moments you can share with us. So many people have... so many people and topics have crossed your plate.

Steve Jagler : 27:14

You know, the first C-level column I wrote for the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel was on Michael Cudahy. one of Wisconsin's foremost entrepreneurs, who passed away not too long ago, in a sense. But he was such a colorful character, and by the time that I was interviewing him, he was advanced in his age, and he was having his customary EarlyTimes and Coke at his favorite watering hole, when I sat down to interview on to write my first C-Level column. And by that age, Michael, Michael had let his filter down. He was like Michael Cudahy Unplugged.(laughter) the most fascinating conversations I've ever had. And I still remember it to this day, it was very enlightening. A similar character like that was George Dalton, the late great entrepreneur. So those those kinds of interviews, those kinds of moments, quickly come to mind when you ask me to look back, who were some of the most impactful conversations I've had. I love to tell other people's stories, if there was a secret sauce to my C level columns that I wrote for so many years. It was that they weren't about me, they were about the person I was interviewing, and what their wisdom and their experience that the way they looked at the world. Sure, because I to be honest with you, I'd be bored if I was just writing about my viewpoint, and every week, and let alone what the real readers wouldn't be bored. I'm not smart enough to have that much wisdom to purvey that much wisdom every Sunday to a wider audience. So I realized that my way forward needed to be as the messenger of their leadership, prisms, and explore and they were all different. And and so I like bringing people like you to my audience, and exploring your truth and your way you look at the world, sharing those truths with my audience, and that I always learned a lot by by doing it that way.

Jessica Ollenburg: 30:05

That's... so many people listen for the point of responding. I think I just saw this again recently, and we need to see it every so often. Because we do want to be responsive in conversations. It's kind of part of active listening. But we need to listen to listen. We need to listen to actually be open minded and grab the objections. I... I like to personally... one of my biggest truths I think is that I like to know the objections of any topic. I want to know why people would disagree, and I want to be able to look at it from that 360. And that --when you're willing to try that on.-- I think is so critical to being open minded and learning

Steve Jagler : 30:53

it what you're saying reminds me of the concept of self awareness. It's so important for all of us to understand that we don't know what we don't know.

Jessica Ollenburg: 31:07

Yes.

Steve Jagler : 31:09

We have blind spots we can not even be aware of, and so I've always had In the back of my mind an alert to myself of acknowledging that"Wait a minute... I don't know about that concept, or I don't know the background of how that happened." And that has always served me well -- an acknowledgment to myself that I don't know what I don't know. And, and, and so I think that's important for all of us.

Jessica Ollenburg: 31:49

It is important. Yeah. Thank you for that thought very much. You mentioned Michael Cudahy... and that brings back... and George Dalton... both, both of whom I also worked with and had just a ton of ton of respect. Michael, met him when we were establishing corporate childcare centers. Because he had done that at Marquette Electronics. And that was really one of the first, so with the momentum of that model, we really continued to do that, built a collaborative childcare center locally in New Berlin, and then also had one at HRS that we test piloted -- boy, was that interesting! (Laughter)

Steve Jagler : 32:46

He was way ahead of his time,

Jessica Ollenburg: 32:48

He was way ahead of his time, way ahead of his time. Yeah. Another I would say, Bob Galvin of Motorola was also someone -- and I know I've mentioned this more than once -- but he left an impression upon me as someone who recognized the importance of youth learning and youth development and developing leadership in our kids who should be leaders, who are destined to be leaders, who want to be leaders, by the time they're 14 was his cut off. He thought, we really need to be investing by that. And I'm a proponent in investing in kids even before they're born. But certainly by 14, I think that there's a lot of characteristics we can learn about, support and help develop there.

Steve Jagler : 33:50

Yeah, we've all got our strengths. We all have our weaknesses, and we all have our blind spots. And certainly by age 14, a lot of lot of all of those are evident and as, as a fairly new grandfather, I'm seeing that play out again for the next generation. And it's exciting to just ponder what their potential holds for their futures.

Jessica Ollenburg: 34:20

Oh, that is exciting to be a grandparent, congratulations.

Steve Jagler : 34:24

It's way better than parenting. (Laughter) They have reliance on us for their for their nutrition, for their morale, morality, for all of the hard stuff. We did all that in parenting. Grandparenting is just the gravy.

Jessica Ollenburg: 34:41

love it. I love that. So you are... tell us about your bold, risk-taking entrepreneurism through Steve Jagler Executive Branding. What are you finding as an entrepreneur? You can... I mean you've treated much of your career as a leader, a pioneer, someone who set standards and you've always been a leader. Are you finding anything new about the entrepreneurial journey?

Steve Jagler : 35:19

To be clear, I am an accidental entrepreneur.(Laughter) I worked at, after my journalism career, I worked at an agency for one year. And long story short, what happened to me is a prospect came to me and said he didn't want to work with an agency. He didn't want to be billed in 10 minute increments. He just wanted to work with me, period. He didn't dare me to start my own company, but he boldly stated that if you start your own company, I'll become your first client.

Jessica Ollenburg: 36:02

Well, there you go, what an entry point.

Steve Jagler : 36:05

And once I got my wife to sign on to the idea, and she said he'll you always land on your feet, you'll be fine... do it, do what you gotta do. And it's... I'm simplifying the story somewhat, and there were some other nuances to it; but that essentially was the birth of my company -- two years ago in May it started. And my next client was a nonprofit that was doing something very noble. It was at the height of COVID. And she had opened up a medical clinic in the heart of a Milwaukee neighborhood that was a health care desert. And the people there had did not have insurance by and large, and they did not have access to medical clinics and medical care. Her problem was, she had won a grant to open this clinic and had 860 vials of COVID vaccine when it first came out. And if you remember, right, they, those vaccine dosages had to be refrigerated. There was a time stamp on all of them...

Jessica Ollenburg: 37:25

Yes, that's right.

Steve Jagler : 37:26

And she came to me and I was the only person in her Facebook tribe, I guess, that had a background in media. She said, I've got the medicine, but nobody knows we're open. I don't know how the media works. Can you help me get this message out. And following my instincts, I guess, and in values I was raised... she had no money, no budget to pay me for this. I helped her pro bono. And a week later, she had a line of people. We established some great media placements and news stories and got the word out. And a week later, she had a line to get in to her clinic. And a few months later, she called me up and said, You ever hear the phrase, the saying, what comes around goes around? And I said, Yeah, but I don't know if I always believe it. But she said, Well, it's coming around, and it's going around. And she has landed two other federal contracts that had within them media relations in their budgets. And she awarded the contracts to my business. And then my business just took off from there with referrals of success stories from one client to another. It's interesting to me, that a lot of my clients seem to have as part of their mission, the social justice element to their mission.

Jessica Ollenburg: 39:07

And well, it's true, and I think you but I think your work connects you with social justice. So we know, we know that that's what you're going to help with. And that's what you're going to deliver.

Steve Jagler : 39:21

Well. I'm humbly grateful for how they have found me and trusted me to help them. And so that that's really at the core of my business. And, and this is the final chapter of my career. And it's, it's it's quite different, quite challenging, but but quite rewarding. I feel very grateful.

Jessica Ollenburg: 39:52

That's fantastic. It's wonderful to hear that you're able to just continue delivering the impact that you've done and continue to set a good example for messaging and social justice. And thank you for all of that. So here's the question for all of our Zenquesting leaders out there. We've learned that to optimize our capacity we need to actively refuel our tanks as humans before those tanks run dry. What do you Steve actively do to refuel and recalibrate when needed? In short, how do YOU zen?

Steve Jagler : 40:35

may be a cliche, but I find if I'm bogged down if I'm stuck in a problem or or a conflict or a situation and I'm not making any progress as far as creating a solution, a way forward. That it's very therapeutic for me to just take my dog Frankie and go for a nice long walk. Change the scenery -- change where my my, what my eyes are looking at -- and that walk-- the dog's mission on that walk is singular in focus. And, and so it, it forces me to change what I'm looking at. And it opens my mind up to other possibilities to let my mind wander rather than sit and be bogged down and get bogged down in the same collective facts that I've been working at for the last hour and a half and getting nowhere with it. That change of scenery, that change of mission, that change... get the heart pumping at a nice brisk walk with my dog. It doesn't always create the solution that's needed, but allows me to recap, you said the word recalibrate, it allows me to recalibrate, then enables me to recalibrate, and, and and rethink the, the what the solutions and the possibilities are.

Jessica Ollenburg: 42:22

I love that. I love that. And I think we so many of us can relate to that. My worst assistant ever is a cat. And he fist punches the printer and has to we have to close the door if there's ever a zoom going on, because he likes to be in every show. But to live and look through the lens of a pet. Wow, that really will. That's brain candy. The mental focus, like you said singular focus, we should all be more like our pets, sometimes that would be a great way to recalibrate.

Steve Jagler : 43:04

Amen.

Jessica Ollenburg: 43:07

Well, lastly, how can our listeners learn more about you and reach you?

Steve Jagler : 43:14

Well, here's another cliche, they can go to my website.

Jessica Ollenburg: 43:17

Because you have one... And it represents you beautifully.

Steve Jagler : 43:25

I feel very blessed to have people in my tribe as it were in the arc of my, my social circle, people like you.

Jessica Ollenburg: 43:40

Thank you!

Steve Jagler : 43:40

I'm easy to find on the internet. My company is young enough that I still have capacity to add new clients without diluting the quality and quantity of care I can devote to them. I have some new ideas and some new approaches... that and my background enable me to create value for them in a way that I'd like to think that a generic public relations media relations person off the street, if you will, I'd like to think that my background, my experience, creates something of value that I can help for my clients. And I'm very grateful for the clients I have, who have been early adopters to be sure. And but they believe in me they believe that I can help them. And it's a win for me, as well. And and it's very rewarding. I'm blessed.

Jessica Ollenburg: 44:50

So happy to hear about rewarding and and it's just been wonderful as always to talk with you. Thank you so much for your great insight and discussion. And again, it's always a pleasure talking with you and thank you so much for your time.

Steve Jagler : 45:08

Thank you for your kindness, Jessica and your wisdom.

Jessica Ollenburg: 45:12

Thank you, Steve.